Ha, small world. Jason’s a friend and co-worker of mine here in Nebraska.
Good luck getting people think critically about the _downside_ of patriotism.
Very interesting perspective. I think this would offend and annoy many American Christians…which I think would be a good thing. :-) Thanks for sharing. Good food for thought.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, and reading your post (and the post to which you linked) impelled me to finally organize my thoughts and write them down myself.
I’m really glad to see Christians dealing with a topic like this from a perspective like this.
On the flip side, the Bible doesn’t say we *shouldn’* love our country. God was the one who established governments here on earth — shouldn’t I love what God has created despite my own opinions?
@Larry: Love, yes. But love in the way we love our brothers, neighbors, and enemies. Not devotion to the political abstraction that is a modern nation.
Also, I’d argue that the government God established initially was Him at the top with human intermediaries. Strong theocracy. He allowed Israel to have a king because the whiny folks wanted to be like other nations.
What a heavy subject.
First, I think two categories should be established in looking at this. The institution of government that rules over the people and then the people that are ruled by that institution of government.
If patriotism and nationalism is contained within the first category I have no problem as a christian thinking and feeling that one country is superior than another. Although, that superiority (morality, justice, law) would have to be deduced from scripture. On the other hand, in the second category it would be utterly foolish to presume that we are more valuable people, all people groups being made in God’s image and likeness, because of where we were born. I liken that to people who are arrogant about their beauty or abilities as if they contributed in anyway to what they look like or how they’re gifted. I also think the effect government has on the morality of the people could be elaborated on as a variable in whether one country’s people are better in that sense than another, but I’ll avoid that.
I think the balance for both sides is that the Bible teaches a two kingdom model. That we ought to submit to our government as a testimony for Christ, give to Caesar what is his but also give to God what is his. We shouldn’t be anarchists who justify our disobedience by saying we’re not part of or we don’t submit to the kingdom of man. As already mentioned, Romans 13 rejects that idea completely. On the other hand we are not to put our faith, security, ultimate allegiance, or hope in government; and unfortunately that is all too often the case.
Lastly, there probably aren’t many things more damaging in the public eye than the gospel being joined to a government or political party.
@shane: Thanks for linking to Romans 13…now I realize I’m way behind in my Scripture reading, and that my comment about God-instituted government being exclusively what I referred to is pretty far off-base.
I stand corrected :-)
random thoughts:
a) small world. both john and andy are friends. you and i haven’t met, but i regularly read both of their blogs and yours. i’m having a moment of contextual weirdness with this convergence.
b) john mccollum puts his money where his mouth is — he’s a founding member of http://www.asiashope.org/
c) shane, daniel: my wife recently shared that she’s always read matthew 22:21 less as a complete deference to government than as a rejection of the entire issue. “jesus, are we supposed to pay taxes to this corrupt and oppressive government?” “it’s caesar’s mug on the coin, so what’s the issue, exactly? give it to him.” it seems to me the romans 13 passage, too, speaks specifically of taxes and respect. it says nothing about conscription, war or (especially) nationalism. that is, pay your taxes, stop badmouthing your leaders, and get about the business of extending the kingdom of god. it reminds me of acts 4:19: not a call to anarchy, but to searching your conscience when you feel your allegiance to the kingdom of god is in conflict with the requirements of your earthly authority.
Daniel, no problem brother. You were spot on that God gave Israel a king because of their hardness of heart. What I think is going on in Romans 13 is God opening up his secret will through Paul of his ultimate authority and sovereignty even in the institution of wicked governments. That doesn’t at all mean he approves of their tyranny, it only reveals that nothing is a surprise to him. All is under his control. It’s interesting to note that the government Paul is telling the church at Rome to submit to is the Roman government then recently led by Nero. Many of the reformers believed that Nero was *the* Anti-Christ warned of in the book of Revelation. I happen to agree.
First and foremost – As Christians, our primary allegiance is always to God and His Kingdom. Our first priority is the Great Commission. Anything that detracts from or dilutes our passion/commitment to these values and responsibilities (including patriotism or nationalism) is sin. plain and simple.
However, patriotism (love of country), even belief in a country’s superiority or relative greatness, is not by nature wrong. Valuing a nation – it’s culture, laws, achievements, influence, and stature – is different than valuing the people of that nation. The simple truth is: the quality of life, freedoms, opportunities, even the morality our governing laws were founded upon, that we as American enjoy, is far more desirable and beneficial than the culture, laws, and lifestyle of many other nations in the world. You can argue that it is not the best. You can point our flaws, and there are many. But you cannot dispute the objectivity of this observation. Try standing at the US Mexican border, and explaining to the immigrants streaming into our nation that the US is no better than Mexico – that they should turn around and go home. I don’t think you would have many takers.
Clearly, I should never place love of country over love or service to God. But, even as a Christian, I can, in good conscience, proudly state that America is a relatively good place to live… Even, dare I say, a better place to live than many other countries.
Joshua, good thoughts. Although, I don’t recall addressing war. I addressed what I think are valid arguments for patriotism and/or nationalism within the constraints of my first category previously mentioned and so long as we don’t put our faith, security, ultimate allegiance, or hope in government. I think the modern popular use of those terms is quite different than their actual meaning. You might think of an ignorant, prideful, redneck with a natty light, shotgun, and hound dog in tow when those terms come up. I don’t. Remember that true patriotism is a love for your country and a willingness to *defend* it. Not hunt nations down and force them into subjection to us. I subscribe to the Just War Theory in case you were wondering.
In your opinion, in light of Romans 13 where does our subjection to government stop?
My above comment is not directed toward you Mr. Joshua Blankenship. I’m trying to say the same thing as you are but failing miserably ;)
shane, in preface, i confess to being hopelessly inadequate to fully tackle this topic.
as to “war,” i probably included it in reference to john’s original post’s discussion of “opposing imperialism.”
i agree that there may be a place for a geo-political patriotism in the kingdom of god: god himself instituted the pre-national division of languages, and seems comfortable using the language of “nations.” but,
jesus displayed an odd dispassion in relation to both his own government and the roman government. he was terribly reticent to speak in the presence of pilate and herod. he charged his disciples with paying their taxes, but it was very offhanded — in much the same way, he pulled a coin from the mouth of a fish, like “this is just money, what’s the big deal?”
i’m not teasing that out into a defense of anti-governmentalism or anti-nationalism. i think our subjection to government should go as far as our conscience allows, in ultimate service to our King, which I think is essentially what you and Joshua (B) are saying. I think there’s wide room for discretion here: “…if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.” (Phil 3:15) I completely love and respect those who think differently on this position.
As far as defending your country goes, my thinking is pretty muddy. Help me out here. I’ve got two preliminary thoughts:
a) I don’t see that Jesus was very concerned with defense of a particular governmental system, or even a specific geographic territory. He has replaced the geographic temple with himself. He refused to engage in the anti-Roman militaristic revolution. In some ways, he was more concerned with the welfare of other nations than of his own — he sent us out into the entire world, to tell every nation that the kingdom is at hand. (I recognized that he ached for his own people, too).
b) I’ve haven’t yet been able to think about my country’s defense in a categorically positive way. That is, “defending my country” has always required a compromise of conscience for me — an uncertainty that I was wholly and truly engaged simply in the defense of life as opposed to the defense of property or the advancement of national interests. It’s a stumbling block for me, in this issue of subjecting fully to the requirements of my citizenship.
I’m sure I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth here and amply demonstrated my ignorance. It’s the nature of the Internet. My apologies in advance — I sincerely respect each of your opinions.
Question:
How do you perceive the moral dilemma of war after reading about God sending Israel to war in the Old Testament to destroy other nations? Yes, it’s the O.T.; but if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, he cared about those nations then as he does now. Can we really be conscientious objectors?
@Mandy: I think the key in the O.T. is that we know, from Scripture, that God Himself sent Israel to war.
That’s how I perceive it at least.
daniel, mandy: yes, that, and we see in jesus another way and another declaration: that israel stand down. just because god sent israel to war in the o.t., it does not automatically follow that it’s right for me to, in every case, go to war at the behest of my government. i submit that yes, we can object, conscientiously.
Thanks, guys for the thoughtful response to my post. I’ve posted a followup at http://earstothetrack.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/the-country-i-love/ …
agreed!
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I'm a graphic designer and sometimes writer living in Anderson, South Carolina. I serve as the Design Director for NewSpring Church. I love Jesus, my wife, Levi's Jeans, good Tex-Mex, and 8oz glass bottle Coca-Cola Classic. On good days I love them roughly in that order. Email me.
On God, Country, Patriotism and Allegiance
Sun 06/22/08
I rolled across the following quote via Opus:
McCollum makes a number of great points in that article, and asks some tough questions (Quote, “Is patriotism a good thing? A bad thing? Both? Neither?”). These are questions I feel like are rarely, if ever, in the public discourse within the context of American Christians, where patriotism is such a hot button topic in the current Presidential campaign.
How unfortunate. If we’re to “…love the Lord your God with all [our] heart and with all [our] soul and with all [our] mind…” I wish more Americans who profess Christianity would actually start using their minds and wrestling with some of these types of questions out loud.