There are 33 comments on this post. Add your own comment.

There was a time (300 years or so after Christ) when you weren’t allowed to run for office if you were a Christian. If you were a Roman official and became a Christian, you were supposed to leave your position.

Sometimes wonder if we’re in year 1700 of an exercise in missing the point.

said sj

at 3:54pm on Thursday

Similarly, last time I visited my family, I visited their church, which I will not name, as I really do like the church with the exception of this one tangent the pastor took.

I will paraphrase, but do so as accurately as possible. Essentially, he talked about watching Obama speak at some event with his wife and kids next to him. He said he was thinking about how Obama was a good speaker … but then the Holy Spirit opened his eyes and helped him realize that since Obama was not strictly pro-life, “this man could look his wife in the eyes, and allow her to kill his children.”

This is a big can of worms you’re opening here on the ol’ blog, Blankenship, because the implications here is the (inevitable) overlap religion/belief and politics. While my example is more explicitly religious (actually, although mine is about a pastor, I’m not sure you get more explicit than in a prayer), there is a common thread that gives me the creeps in both instances.

If you’re a pastor, where does your message diverge from being spiritually significant and become political lobbying? (Subquestion: as a pastor, should you use your role as spiritual leader of a congregation to influence minds politically?) If you’re leading a rally, at what point do your prayers cross the line from being about spiritually relevant issues to inappropriately political issues?

said Cameron

at 3:56pm on Thursday

Religion has been wholly politicized by both parties. I’m with you, if you can’t keep party talking points out of a prayer, then maybe it shouldn’t be a public prayer tied to a campaign event.

said Grant

at 3:59pm on Thursday

This is a big can of worms you’re opening here on the ol’ blog, Blankenship

I’m aware. I mean, where’s the fun in keeping the two most heated topics separate around here? The overlap is troubling, but is a tension I think a lot of people exist in everyday (and a lot of politicians attempt to leverage one way or another.) Worth discussing, worms or no.

said Joshua

I’m voting for Jesus.

said Orion

at 4:12pm on Thursday

Since when is it wrong to petition God in prayer?

said Manuel

at 4:45pm on Thursday

You can replace “Senator John McCain and Governor Sarah Palin” with “Senator Barack Obama and Senator Joe Biden” and switch the policies to reflect the respective party line. It’s still just as disgusting.

I love that you threw this comment out there. It’s spot on. I’ve been more on the receiving end of “Christians ARE ALWAYS republicans” belief far too often, but it’s good to be safe not to bounce back to hard the other way.

A few funny stories:

I remember going to the Christian book store a few years ago in Ohio, and there was a painting of George W. Bush with “spirit”(?) versions of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln laying hands on him in prayer. That’s when I decided I needed to fully divorce my faith from political parties.

At my church’s high school service in KY the other week we were doing some sort of illustration contrasting people. When we did McCain/Obama it was met by students excessive cheering and booing respectively. It was like one giant bullhorn yelling “I like what my parents like!”.

said Daniel

at 4:47pm on Thursday

Amaziah, who has been whispering in your ear?

said James

at 5:38pm on Thursday

Since when is it wrong to petition God in prayer?
— Manuel

I’m no theologian, but I’ll give this a (hopefully humble) go.

The simple answer is “it isn’t wrong to petition God in prayer.” The more complex answer is something along the lines of “it isn’t wrong to petition God in prayer, so long as your motives are guided by a Kingdom mindset, not the American Dream (or your greed, pride, sin, etc.)”

James 4:3 says “When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.” A prayer to God for certain candidates to be elected to office specifically so that they can make sure Americans maintain our wealth and prosperity (ostensibly through a God-ordained strong economy of low taxes and minimal government spending) sounds like a wrong motive to me.

John Piper puts it well, “[Natural desires are not wrong, but] they should always be subordinate to spiritual desires; kingdom desires; fruit-bearing desires; gospel-spreading, God-centered desires; Christ-exalting, God-glorifying desires. And when our natural desires are felt as a means to these greater desires, then they become the proper subject of prayer.”

said Joshua

I blame Dobson.

said Paul

at 6:13pm on Thursday

I’m pretty positive God doesn’t care about the political landscape. Not that he doesn’t care about what concerns people or want to bless them (quite to the contrary). And definitely not that we shouldn’t care and vote our consciences. I whole-heartedly believe we have a responsibility as believers and citizens to prayerfully seek God on how we should vote and then go do it.

But the Bible seems pretty explicit that God knows who our leaders are going to be, that He ordains them (whether they’re godly or not), and that we should pray for them. Paul talks about slaves being subject to their masters with a good attitude, never calling into question whether or not slavery is even just: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ” (Ephesians 6:5).

God isn’t going to be bothered if America completely FAILS tomorrow. He is not phased or surprised by our current financial situation. He is concerned about his Kingdom, period.

said Mandy

at 6:21pm on Thursday

strange how everyone can simultaneously claim that god is on their side.

said amoslanka

at 7:05pm on Thursday

I usually don’t comment of political discussions on blogs for a variety of reasons, mostly how often things are taken out of context, but felt the need to step in this time, being that I was actually at this event and the pastor you quoted is the pastor of the church I belong to and have attended for six years or so.

Firstly, I went to this rally out of pure curiosity. I’m a registered independent and a first time voter and I’m going to every rally that comes near me, Democrat or Republican, and too be honest, I was surprised to see my pastor at a political event - he has never gotten political on a Sunday morning. I was even more surprised to hear he’d be giving the opening prayer. I’m under the impression, he was asked that morning and was not expecting to pray, but I assume he responded much like Donald Miller when he was asked to pray at the Democratic Convention: “When someone asks you to pray, you pray.” I would imagine if he was asked to pray with Senators Obama and Biden, he would.

I find it interesting, though I fully expected it, that this would be the section of his prayer that would be quoted. This was also the only part I disagreed with because it was so partisan and divisive. Nevertheless, I like how they left out where he prayed about America’s responsibilities to help those in need and that we, can turn back to God, regardless of who our President is.

Finally, I was a bit troubled by your last comment; “Please, Lord, keep my taxes low and the economy strong so I can continue being in the top 1% of money earners worldwide while not caring about the other 99%.” I wonder how/why you automatically connected low taxes and strong economy to a desire to continue making more money. My pastor actually gives away 2/3 of his salary, living on significantly less than those in our area and spends a few months a year living and working in the poorest countries because he believes in Jesus’ command to serve the least of these.

While I do agree that the section your quoted shows a theology that appears contradictory to the Bible, I think it is largely misunderstood when read alone as opposed to his entire prayer. And even though I’m not a McCain supporter, I don’t see a problem with praying for the candidate you support and even the one you don’t.

said Jarrett Fuller

at 9:58pm on Thursday

…being that I was actually at this event and the pastor you quoted is the pastor of the church I belong to and have attended for six years or so.

I write about Palin and someone from the same Wasilla, AK church happens to be reading. I quote a Pennsylvania pastor, and one of his congregants comments. What are the odds of this continuing to happen to me?

Of course they didn’t quote anything non-partisan from his prayer; it isn’t exactly newsworthy when a Christian pastor prays a Christian prayer, political rally or no. The media outlets are looking for anything they deem newsworthy, and that quote fit the bill. I unsuccessfully tried to locate a transcript of the entire prayer, but the linked Washington Post article was all I could find.

I see no problem with praying for candidates (and leaders in general) because Christians are explicitly urged to do so by scripture: “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” — 1 Timothy 2:1-4

So it’s obviously not the praying for the candidates that I referred to as “disgusting,” it’s the concept that God is somehow concerned with the tax brackets and the economy in America. For partisan government spending policies to be a part of a public forum prayer is just bizarre to me.

I’m sure your pastor is a great guy, especially based on what you’re saying about his desire to serve and give, but the quoted portion is a troubling mixture of prosperity and petition. It’s indicative of how the Prosperity Gospel and “what I have is not enough” kind of mentality has subtly seeped into the theology of Christianity in American (and is currently being exported to other countries due to our influence.) It’s scary stuff, unbiblical, and not to be ignored.

I wonder how/why you automatically connected low taxes and strong economy to a desire to continue making more money.

It seems like a logical progression of thought that an answered prayer for low taxes would lead to an outcome of more money in your pocket. What would another motivation be?

said Joshua

it’s the concept that God is somehow concerned with the tax brackets and the economy in America

Right, and the concept that God is somehow concerned with how we do on that math test, or if our next church service runs smoothly, or if I will get nervous speaking in front of a crowd.

Actually, God IS concerned with all these small petty little prayers we have. He is concerned because we are concerned.

My wife shares with me lots of stories about things that happen at her workplace (she works at a bookstore). Stories of silly co-workers and kids throwing books around and whether they made their target sales and worries about arranging her book displays. These are things that do not affect my life in anyway, they are not things that I should be concerned with. But I love my wife, and these are things that she cares about. Whether I think these things are important or not does not matter, I care for my wife and because of that, I am concerned with the things that are important to her.

These things (whether petty or not) matter to me, because _she_ matters to me.

Lucky for me, God treats his bride (i.e. us) much better than I can ever hope to achieve (but will continue to strive for). So when we are concerned about the economy and low taxes (because we need money to buy food for our families, because we need to pay the bills, because we can’t afford a mortgage, because our retirement money is disappearing) God is also concerned.

The stupid little things that I care about, matter to God.

I love that God is concerned.

said Jesse J. Anderson

at 3:00am on Friday

@Jesse:

If the motivation for wanting low taxes and a stable economy are truly so you can take better care of your family, that’s one thing. But in this situation, you have strong economy and low taxes/spending in a prayer for a candidate who uses these items directly in the election platform.

Imagine somebody praying for universal healthcare so that everybody that was sick could afford the care he or she needed. The motivation may be out of caring for people the supplicant knows. Whether or not you agree with universal healthcare, you could probably support somebody caring about others and wanting them to be healthy.

But now imagine somebody praying at a rally for a politician who uses universal healthcare as an election issue (we don’t really have that going on this go-round). Now it sounds like praying for politics. Maybe the motivation hasn’t changed, but I think it’s a really sketchy way to behave publicly when intentions can’t always be explained.

When a Christian is in public, he or she is representing Jesus Christ, not a candidate, and praying for platform issues in public sounds like representing the latter over the former.

said Daniel

at 6:16am on Friday

Jesse, I hear you. Your point that, “the stupid little things that I care about, matter to God. I love that God is concerned” is something I share. However:

But in this situation, you have strong economy and low taxes/spending in a prayer for a candidate who uses these items directly in the election platform…When a Christian is in public, he or she is representing Jesus Christ, not a candidate, and praying for platform issues in public sounds like representing the latter over the former.
—Daniel

This is the point I’m after. Is God concerned with our lives? Yes. Is God concerned with the motives of our prayers? Yes. But is there a point when the motive of our prayer makes the prayer ineffective? Obviously there is.

What I reject in all this is an underlying brand of theology that makes much of me, and seeks to use God to achieve those aims. I’m not saying that was this pastor’s explicit motive, but context matters, and in the context of a Republican Presidential candidate’s rally attended by 6000 supporters, a prayer for lower taxes feels like party policy in prayer. I’m just calling it how I see it.

Actually, God IS concerned with all these small petty little prayers we have. He is concerned because we are concerned.

I would say He is concerned because He chooses to be concerned, which is a huge semantical shift, but also a personal theological one. And again, I would say He is concerned with our prayers, but is also concerned with the motive of them.

said Joshua

Thanks everyone for a civil, passionate conversation about politics and religion. You’re all champs.

said Joshua

Altough previously I quite rudely defended Palin (under the monicker “soon to be former reader”; MY APOLOGIES TO THE READERSHIP) on this blog, I have to agree with Joshua here.

It just seems so self serving to assume what benefits me is God’s agenda. Back when I attended church, this “God’s Nation” connection seemed so prevelant. This way of thinking, to me, seemed in contradiction to what Christ said; especially on taxes. This kinda of assumpiton, is the very thing that aided in my effective jump off the bandwagon. More and more, it looks to me, that the American Gospel takes more and more licence to integrate political agenda into a blurred message. Sure, alot of us want lower taxes…. but can anyone honeslty claim or assume that this God’s will?

I would also side with John Piper on this. He has constantly proposed that if a Supreme Being exists…. it is probable that he is wholly concerned with his agenda first. If that benefits us, then great. A safer stance when praying then, might be to ask for his kingdom to come and his will be done… not highlighting a political platform.

said brando

at 8:34am on Friday

Couldn’t agree more with you, Josh. I also get tired of people acting like the United States is just automatically God’s chosen country in the world, as if He looks down the hearts of Americans (not only those who don’t believe, but also those who claim His name but don’t really know or care about what it means to follow Him) and gives sigh of delight. We seem less and less like we can remotely claim to be a Christian nation. A nation with true followers of Christ in it, sure, but a Christian nation? We have to get past this assumed linkage that definitively tries to claim Christianity=Nationalism=Political Party affiliation. Your response with the quote from James 4 says it all. Should we petition God regarding such a weighty, important decision? Absolutely. But with such self-serving motives it seems like it would be filthy rags to God.

said ksmizzle

at 10:57am on Friday

You can’t divorce your religious beliefs from your political ideals. To think you can is shear ignorance. Should “talking points” be involved in prayers? Probably not, but that would end up being an argument you must make on the specific level, and not the general. Abortion is a “talking point”, so should it never be prayed for in a political setting? I think that the sanctity of life is very much something that should govern a Christian’s voting. To think that it isn’t, is a divorcing of your religious beliefs and your political ideals.

I will agree with you that praying for a different tax system probably isn’t the best example, but show me where in the Bible it says that there are things you shouldn’t bring to God in prayer (Philippians 4:6). I don’t remember seeing a list of things that should and shouldn’t be prayed for listing anywhere in the Bible.

If you (me included) want to blame someone about the state of Christianity and politics in America, look in the mirror.

Man, this is way too big of a topic to try and talk about online…

said Aaron

at 12:32pm on Friday

I agree with Aaron. Your worldview shapes how you see everything - perhaps we don’t know our own worldview well enough to form consistent opinions (and chose the more American “shop a belief” view - pick and chose what makes you feel best about the world, return it if you don’t like it and shop some more). Your worldview includes your theological and spiritual beliefs; which in turn shapes your political leanings. It has to, its just a matter of how conscious one is of it.

At same time, our beliefs/worldviews are not universally shared, thus sometimes the more “political” stance alters in light of the constituency (which varies by city, state, etc) - but that does not change your personal belief. For instance, I believe abortion is morally wrong yet I also know that many people do not share that belief (either because they are decidedly irreligious, agnostic, or leave it up to the convenience of “choice”). If pray openly and publically about the issue, does that then mean that I want a theocracy?

In this specific case I see it more as a poor choice of perspective (given the setting) and less about the “rightness” or “wrongness” of praying for tax easements, etc. Its about prudence and wisdom; perhaps its was unwise or imprudent, but not wrong.

Christians do far worse things on a daily basis to give our beliefs a disgusting pallor.

said Paul

at 1:19pm on Friday

I would say He is concerned because He chooses to be concerned, which is a huge semantical shift, but also a personal theological one. And again, I would say He is concerned with our prayers, but is also concerned with the motive of them.

I would absolutely agree with that. Just as God has chosen to love us, despite our actions… because he does love us, he chooses to be concerned with the small things that concern us (just as I “choose” to be concerned about the things that matter to my wife, because I love her).

I still think it’s wrong for us to be judging whether or not someone else’s prayer is appropriate or not, or to be assuming what his motivations are.

I myself have prayed for our economy to improve because I know many families that are struggling deeply in these times. Taxes and government spending are huge topics on everyone’s mind during these times (just search “bailout” on twitter). If I were invited to pray at a rally, and I believed that the candidate I was praying for could be the one to fix that, heck ya I’m going to pray that God empowers that leader to do just those things that concern me.

This was not John McCain praying for God to bless him on national tv. This was a pastor who believes John McCain and Sarah Palin to be the best choice for future leadership in this country. When invited to pray for these potential leaders at an event supporting these leaders, he prayed for things he, and many people care about.

It just seems silly to me, if I were in that pastor’s position, to censor my prayer and remove anything that maybe sounds politically charged - whether or not it was what I cared about and wanted to pray to God for help with. I just don’t think God cares about the politics.

said Jesse J. Anderson

at 1:21pm on Friday

Amen brother. This really grosses me out. Thanks for posting it so I can remember my need to pray for politics in American and our hearts in general.

said kayb

at 3:35pm on Friday

While I want and pray for our financial situation to be better, for the people I care about to be healthy and have access to the best health care, for the environment not to be destroyed, and a host of other things, that doesn’t mean that my prayers will be granted. The Bible promises that “[t]he prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” (James 5:16). Yet Jesus also promises that “[i]n this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world” (John 16:33). We must pray, believing that God hears us and cares for us, but also understanding that he is not bound by our wants and desires.

God’s agenda is WAY bigger than our political, social, and environmental issues. He is out to establish his Kingdom. If he allowed Israel to be taken captive by other completely godless peoples, if he allowed his Son to be crucified in order to further his plan, he’s not going to have a problem doing whatever else it takes to establish his Kingdom. Like Brando said, we need to ask for “his kingdom to come and his will be done.”

said Mandy

at 11:01pm on Friday

“”Everything is permissible” — but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible” — but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.” (I Corinthians 10:23,24)

I don’t believe we want to get into a debate about the purpose of prayer vs. God’s will — that would go in a totally different direction (a good one, but different). I think this verse sums it “the rub”.

said Paul

at 6:38am on Saturday

If I have to check all my motives at the door, then I ain’t getting an affirmative on any of my prayers. The prayer this guy offered isn’t a whole lot different than what I pray for my kids every night: Lord, protect what I love. Selfish, yes, but what other options do I have?

said Anthony

at 9:53am on Sunday

“Lord, protect what I love.”

Is it ok to love money? Because a prayer to protect what I love if that thing is money seems to run counter to the Gospel and Christianity. (Of course, this situation and topic isn’t as black and white as that question, as we’re seeing from the comments here.)

said Joshua

It can be fairly difficult to provide for my children if the economy is being flushed down the commode. I can pray for prosperity without loving money. While I need/want money, it’s still only a means to an end.

said Anthony

at 8:35am on Monday

But praying for taxes to be low doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to provide for your family better. What if you have higher taxes but universal health care? You’re not going to be wasting money paying specialists to provide care for a sick child, wife, parent, whomhaveyou. My grandparents aren’t going to be struggling to make ends meet by spending all their money on prescription medications.

We all want to be blessed, and that’s not bad to pray for (see Prayer of Jabez). But assuming God is most definitely going to make that happen by selecting a particular candidate to be President? He’s way bigger, more powerful, and more creative than just that.

said Mandy

at 4:26pm on Monday

Ah, but now you are getting bogged down in the specifics. I am not proposing that he is praying for the right thing, just that he could be praying that the Lord protects what he loves. We are talking about intent, not content.

said Anthony

at 8:45am on Tuesday

Paul, do not assume that people take a pro-choice stance because they are either decidedly irreligious, agnostic, or leave it up to the convenience of “choice.” I consider myself a Christian and am relatively undecided on the issue of abortion. It is an issue I pray about on occasion.

said Renaud

at 10:23pm on Tuesday

Is it ok to love money? Because a prayer to protect what I love if that thing is money seems to run counter to the Gospel and Christianity. (Of course, this situation and topic isn’t as black and white as that question, as we’re seeing from the comments here.)

I don’t think it is. Implicit in the teaching in the New Testament is to “Love God” and to serve no other master than Him. Going from the micro-topic of money to the macro-topic of politics, I think the relevant tie between the two is the role of ‘ultimate’ - particularly, the question of what is worth ultimate value in life? To follow Christ mandates the answer to the question of ‘ultimate’ must, in fact, be Christ: indeed, there is no room for anything other than Christ.

To politics: the major issue I see in Christians in election season is the misallocation of importance away from God to secondary issues - to writ: abortion, anti-socialization policies, lower taxes, the support of Israel, et. al. There’s nothing inherently wrong with any of those positions, per se, but I wonder, often, if the world looking in thinks something is slightly wacky with Christians who sing about love and peace, but vote for policies that end in the death of Palestinian Christians in Gaza or abortion doctors.

said Benjamin

at 9:40pm on Tuesday

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